ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL | A Conversation with Lauren Davis

It’s our anniversary, and we’re turning the mic inward.

In this special episode of Beneath the Busy, our Producer and Editor Toto sat down with our host Lauren Davis, for a raw, honest conversation about her own journey. Beyond the podcasting, Lauren shares her personal experiences, the moments that shaped her, and what it truly means to lead with authenticity in both life and work.

We talk candidly about superwoman syndrome, parenting pressure, and the moment your body and relationships start telling the truth you keep overriding. Lauren unpacks why work-life balance is a trap, how busyness becomes a socially approved way to avoid discomfort, and what sits underneath high performance: the need to prove, fear of irrelevance, and the belief that rest equals failure. We also go deeper into agency, especially for anyone who cannot simply quit a job due to finances, visas, or responsibility, and how ownership can be both terrifying and freeing.

From there, we get practical: why wellbeing programmes can become “wellbeing washing”, what healthy excellence actually means, and how nervous system regulation changes the quality of leadership presence. We cover psychological safety in plain language, why leaders and HR professionals need support like athletes do, and small daily habits that help you step out of fight-or-flight without adding another task to your to-do list.

This isn’t just a celebration, it’s an invitation to slow down, reflect, and connect with the human stories behind the hustle. Whether you’re a longtime listener or new to the show, this episode offers a fresh perspective on resilience, growth, and the courage to be unapologetically yourself.

Join us as we celebrate the milestones, honor the struggles, and look ahead to what’s next for Beneath the Busy. Thank you for being part of this community, we couldn’t have done it without you.

Thanks for listening!
If you’re ready to take this further, here are a few ways to connect or go deeper:

Lauren's online course:

https://www.ljdwellbeing.com/courses/

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→ Sign up here to receive a simple yet powerful resource to combat burnout and reclaim your energy.

Join Laurens Newsletter
→ Thoughtful, grounded reflections on navigating workplace pressures, supporting mental health, and leading with impact. Sign up here.

Say hi / share a takeaway
→ Connect with Lauren on LinkedIn.
→ Message Lauren directly here.

Work with Lauren
→ See how Lauren supports senior leaders and HR professionals in building mentally healthy teams and organisations.

Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Hi there, it's Toto. Thank you so much for tuning in. Welcome to Beneath the Busy. We have a really special episode for you this week. Um We had the chance to sit down with our host this time and to Lauren about everything surrounding her life, her practice, um, experiences that led her to this point, to starting this to the work that she's doing. Um, and we had a really wonderful conversation that I'm excited to share with you to celebrate our one-year here at Beneath the Busy the podcast. Um, we're all super excited to share this with you. Thank you so much for supporting us um so far. And we've got some really exciting things for you lined up year. So stick with us and enjoy these next little bit less than two hours of a beautiful conversation we had. Yeah, like how do you feel about or like what do you think led um you to this point in your career, or also um in your in like professional and personal life um that made you specific kind of area of work? Um was there like a specific event or multiple events to this to this point, or can you even pinpoint like a certain um yeah, stream into that? Or yeah, like how was that for you?

Speaker 4: 1:38

Yeah, so I don't think it was one event. I think there's multiple and there's been multiple stages, I think just starting from a young person, maybe I've always been fascinated about human behaviour. So I just remember always thinking, like, why did that person say that? Or like, why did I say that? What happened before that, and then what happened, and how did that lead to that? And so always and always kind of observing people and why are they doing the things they're doing. Um, and then I remember reading a book, um, as it was a but written by a child psychologist, and I and it was about her work with children as a therapist. Okay, and I always said I'm gonna be a child therapist, and then I did my master's in clinical psychology, and when I did my child psychology block, I was like, I'm not doing It's just too, it was just too heart-wrenching, and also got to deal with the parents, and anyway. So that was kind of into psychology, and then into the kind of world of work and leadership, I had to do a year of Africa. We get placed at a rural hospital outside of the major cities to try and offer services into the underprivileged areas, and because the population I was servicing, they didn't know what psychology was, they couldn't speak English, I couldn't Saswati. I soon realized, the the colleague and I, we realized sitting down and trying to do kind of traditional therapy was just going to work. Um, you know, they'd often I'd start out through a trying to say to them, Look, I can't offer you medication I'm not a doctor.

Speaker: 3:20

Which is what they were expecting, I'm assuming. Exactly.

Speaker 4: 3:22

And I was like, I can't offer you a grant because I'm not a social worker. And then they would look at me and like, so what can you do? And I'm trying to explain, well, I can listen, but I speak your language. And so we started um uh becoming much more, I suppose, for patient rights. We were looking at the organization, the hospital, the system, and we were looking, we started educating the about psychology and emotional needs of patients, and a lot with the hospital leadership. Um and that really got me interested uh into organizational world leadership, and so from there I then went into myself, into an insurance company and HR, and I started with leaders, with organizational design, with talent career development, that whole space.

Speaker: 4:17

Wow, so you were actually on the other side yourself? On the inside. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 4:21

Yeah. And really saw the good parts of corporate and space, and it was a great company, great culture. They were incredible leaders. So I got to see that side, but I also saw the challenges the impact. And I started then very in very subtle ways, just looking at the impact on people's mental health. And then I left that and went into consulting. And ever since then, my focus has been on leadership and culture. Really, I've I've been saying for years, my passion is bringing humanity back into the workplace. Um, but then about I don't know, it was eight, seven, years ago, I burnt out myself. So I realized, and I wasn't working for a company, I was for myself, but the the pressure to perform, to deliver, to show up was partly society-driven, but also my own ambition, my drive, my need to prove. I I had what I call superwoman syndrome. And I remember walking one day with my mentor, and I said her, you know what? I think I'm gonna resign from Lauren Davis consulting. That's what my business was called at the time. I have the most awful boss. She drives me to work at all hours of the night. She's always messaging me. I've got to be always on. She's making me travel all the time. She says yes to every project. She's got no boundaries. I said, I think I'm gonna go back to the office and tender my resignation. And I think that was a moment for me of shift of okay, I to work differently. And that then really set me on the path around workplace health and how do we how do we work in healthy ways? Because work is important, but how do we keep And then over the last couple of years, five, six years, I thinking, well, actually, it's the leaders. If they're not healthy, then that breeds that kind of um culture throughout the organization. So, whilst my focus is on mental health in general in the I really want to focus specifically on the leaders. Because if they're well, everything else is well. And then because of my experience working with an HR team, also spent the years supporting HR professionals because work is often the invisible emotional labor. This you know, they hold it all together and don't get much support. So I think if HR is well and leaders are well, then there's a there's a flow, like a base also to hold the company.

Speaker: 6:52

Uh it's really interesting what you said, I think about that. You went through, well, first of all, had a moment of like how you were put into a position where you were you where were sent to make a difference and offer some of your and you realized that wasn't really possible because there no kind of docking point, it sounded, it sounded like, um, and that you then really early on made the the experience that is one, but not how the system kind of expected you to, and even in a place like this, or specifically maybe in a place this, that commute like communicating with the people in um, that then that often don't really know what's going on there, right? Like, and so you've kind of you've went you've you went through the from the bottom up in a way, and you've experienced the um the challenges on the ground in a way, and then upward. Um, and I think that's really interesting to then that you also went into HR and continued that work. Because I feel like HR is kind of like to me, the way I see it through your work, but then also just my own experience, it's always like a little bit in the middle. It's like the HR people are kind of like yeah, communicating everyone actually doing the work in the company, um, in the work, in the offices, um, but then also have to, you know, filter out what's important and communicate that upward to the CEOs or the leaders, um, and then vice versa, have to the decisions often down, and like that's such a charged and so vital in a company, but so overlooked, like you often Um, and it's to me it's very interesting that you went all of these steps and then became essentially independent with all of these things, and that's the moment where you started out, and I think that's that's very interesting, and I think says a lot about um well, first of all, the system and the way it's set up, but then also about yourself, I think, because and about the your drive for this. Um, I think often we we start working in our own companies structures when we realize we want to do something a little bit different, and the way things are done in other places quite aligned with our values, and then we go our own ways figure out you know how to provide a different platform. And that's I think it's very often the case that you know build their own companies and then they start burning out they realize I don't really know where to start, even and all this responsibility that you then have. And it's I I can relate as well that even when you're working on your own and there isn't really a team around you, you are the team, right? So you you get to feel the same like um effects of being a even if you're just working for yourself. I think that's such a um like fitting image that you just of you you're quitting your own business. Like I can relate to that so much, it's a daily, yeah, a daily struggle that I feel like I don't know if I can uh answer to anymore in a way. Um what do you what do you think it is about that moment? Um what what do you think got you to that moment that made this person in your company, like in your own structure, I can't do this anymore. Like what because you know I think we we often we're we're able to go pretty far beyond our boundaries if we want to. We choose that, right? Like external things make us choose that, but it's also a I think a lot of people, if you become a leader, there is a drive that you have to push forward to push boundaries. But I think you know, so the pushing boundaries is to me, I can have a positive impact on a company, on on whatever you are working towards, whatever it is, if it's a product or um or things. But I think, yeah, what do you think got you to that point? Um, and what was that point like that made you want to shift want to change something? Was it did you feel like you wanted to change where it was or just step out of it? Like, what was that point like?

Speaker 4: 11:08

So I think a bit of both, but I I I really I I had taken on way too much. So I I think my child was about five or six at the time, so I was a mom to my biological son and a stepson, um, Josh was about eight or nine at that stage. No, young, ten, eleven, he had just come to live with us, so I had two boys at home, my own business. Um, and then I also started a little school for my son because I wasn't happy with the traditional schooling so I started a progressive school. And so, whilst I wasn't doing the teaching, myself and this other mom, we were still having to manage this whole thing the teachers and the parents, and um, and that was part superwoman. I thought I could do it all, and society really reinforces Everybody was like, Oh, you're so amazing, I don't know how you do it all. And I remember when people would say that to me, I'm actually don't know how I'm doing it all because I'm not. Like inside, I often I was just exhausted all the time. I was miserable. Sometimes I'd stand up to deliver a keynote or run a workshop with a room full of people, and I would just stand there I just want to sit down and go to sleep. Like I just want to curl up into a bill and just go to sleep. Um, and so so it was kind of insidious. It wasn't all at once, it was the slow and just constantly to do things differently. Okay, so I'm gonna set a boundary, I'm not gonna work after eight o'clock at night, but then there'd be a big report or a design that I'd have to do, and I'd end up doing it. Or I'm not gonna travel this week because it was something for my son, and then there was a big job. And so I tried all the typical boundary setting, time all the external things because I've been. Separating also private life and work and get the work-life balance and all of that stuff, and um cognitively I knew had to change. Yeah, my family knew it. I was grumpy, I was miserable. Um, and I'll never forget a colleague of mine said she had her son, he was older at the time, you know, what he would her by. And he said, Mom, I'll remember that you're always tired, all you wanted was to wait for your glass of wine on a night. And I thought, my gosh, if I asked my son that, that would thing. In fact, and so, yeah, and so we had a cut, so I had a of those awarenesses, and then one day um I was with my son in the park, and you know, it was after school, we had homework, we had to go and walk the dog, then I had to get back so he could have supper, so he could have a bath, so could get back into so he could get into bed, so I could get back to work. And it was this like cycle that I was just on and and I was in the park, and I was like, come, we've got to we've got to go, I've got to get you supper. And he sat down in the park and just wailed. I mean, neighbors, everybody was looking and he just and he was like, All you care about is the schedule. That's all you ever care about is the schedule. And at that moment, I was like, What am I what am I doing? You know, because it's true, that was all, and it wasn't it was just to get through the schedule so that I could at my desk and carry on with my work.

Speaker 1: 14:12

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 14:13

Um, and I had completely convinced myself that it's fine you know, I always used to say there are these people that that their family is their most important thing, but yes, family's important, but work's my thing. Like that's and I was quite proud of it. That I'm okay to say it's not my family, it's work, and but it wasn't giving me joy. It wasn't, you know, and so that's when I started to think, well, if work's my thing, I should be feeling a lot more, not always like happy or joyful, but just a lot more Yeah.

Speaker: 14:44

Was there any kinds of rewards though, like within that?

Speaker 4: 14:46

Yes, loads, loads. I mean, the work we were delivering was incredible work and the impact we were having with companies, and you know, where I got to work with leaders who really got it and saw and company cultures where we did um we worked with their and their mission and their vision. Like it was really impactful, and that was a bit of the in a way, because it was so so I was making this amazing in the organizational space, but my life and my family's was not that amazing. You know, they were not getting the best of me. And I was, you know, all this stuff I was sprouting to you know, people, you know, that you must give the best of not what's left of you. And I had all this like rhetoric, so I knew what I needed to do, but I could not do it because I was so entrenched in my business. I had a business partner at the time um in the school where I had this other mum I was doing it with, with my family. Then my father also got uh quite critically ill, he's fine but um that was kind of like the final, I just had no to deal with, I had no slack for that. And that really took me over the edge, but I kept going that's what those of us that are driven and ambitious, we keep thinking it's a fault with us. So we're like, okay, I've just got to dig deeper and I've just got to work harder and I've got to sleep less.

Speaker: 16:05

And it's like you said, I think specifically when you're in a position where you, you know, as a woman in a with a family their own business, like you things are just expected of you aren't of other people. And that is, I think, also something that is really important to stress and talk about. And you know, like just the the there's like a blind spot, I in in corporate and and company structures about this thing. And it's not it's not just about um it's it's not just a gender issue or anything like that, but I think specifically in a where you are, you know, often you know if people are like in leadership positions and they have kids and they are a single mom and they or single parent. Um on and and I think yeah, there's like a lot of things you are expected to do, and then when you like you said before, when then share these things with people, they are just they they more um they are more amazed than they are compassionate Um and that that I think is disguised as like that's not my It's like wow, that's incredible, go off and do it, and oh my gosh, what do you need, you know? Yeah, um, and I think that is that is so interesting because um also with a lot of people with new startups or young people um that are leader positions, they are often, you know, like a lot of my colleagues and and peers, um, you know, people in their like early 20s, early 30s, they there's no space for mental because it's all about pushing and and going harder and and bigger, and it's just not, I think it's not sustainable. It's it might get you, like you said, it might get you some on the way, and you might look back and think, oh, that was I did that, but what's to what cost, you know, what's the for that? And you just will not be able to do it until the rest of and that's that that should be the incentive, right? I think to do it in a way that it is fulfilling in all parts your life, and also sustainably fulfilling um in a way can do it for multiple decades or however long you want to, know. I think that's the beauty about being um having your own is that you can if if you're well and healthy, you can do you until you're bored of it, essentially. Um, but yeah, that's so interesting. And yeah, I I'm so curious about um how that then started for you when you started working with people in this position because you were just describing how you went through the in a way. Um what changed for you when you then this is kind of over a step in between that I'm curious about also. But if you like jump a couple steps forward to the point you maybe had your first clients in the leader leadership or HR, how did you start looking differently at your own in that?

Speaker 4: 19:11

Yeah, I mean, I could see a lot of myself reflected in them and the pressure, because even though they were in the company and I was working for myself, it's the same pressure to to show up in a particular way. Um, and what I started to really recognize through my own work was this internal, we call it drive, we call it ambition, we call it achievement oriented, but actually it's this need to prove and that I'm not I'm only enough when I'm when I'm when I've got the results, when I'm showing up in particular way. And so part of that um reinforcement that we get from of, oh, you're so amazing, I don't know how you do it, into that of like, you see, look how worthy I am, look, how important I am. Um and so I started to recognize that in a lot of the and HR professionals I was working with, and just started name it and call it out and say, like, I'm not saying you be ambitious, and I'm not saying that you need to be a couch potato and never want for anything and just be complacent. But how to your point, how can we do it in a way that is and sustainable and it's part of our life? It's not so long, I often love to play with like language and and the the rhetorics we've been fed. And so a long time ago, I started thinking this firstly, the work, the word work-life balance is a complete misnomer balance, you'll never get the balance. So we're always failing. So you're always feeling like I'm not doing this right you can never get the balance. So that I started questioning, and most of my clients, now, they'll know like balance is a swear word for me it's just it sets us up for failure. But then I started saying, we actually, in one saying work and life. So we're literally being told we have to balance work with rest of our life. And that whole equation is completely wrong. Because why should work be separated out from every other of our lives and be the thing that is most important to be those scales to balance? And that that work is that it's we literally have been to believe that work is that thing that is the most and then the rest of life we have to fit in the in in else. Yeah. And so for me, it's around um, I often draw these if this is your life, at the moment we've been told work to fit almost right inside of it, and then you in those spaces you can fit other bits of life. But what the work that I do is trying to help people get to a place where that circle of work shrinks. It doesn't have to be the smallest, it can still be your circle, but it shrinks to make space for the other things. And to have space. It doesn't have to all be filled. And I think that starting to like name that, starting to call that out, starting to question why are you so busy all the What is fueling it? Do you really need to be in every meeting? Do you really need to be on all the time? Just the other day I had a conversation with a client. You know, do you have to check your phone for the hour you're at gym? You know, you're not in emergency medical services. Nobody's gonna die. But we're so hooked in because we think that we that's how feels.

Speaker: 22:31

Yeah, yeah. It it feels like if I don't check this email, if I don't respond at like at this moment, someone maybe I will die even.

Speaker 4: 22:41

You know, like well, it is to that point. I mean, we laugh, but it is, yes, it is that we worry else will die and they think they will die because of this hurry sickness, but but we do think we'll die. We won't we won't be relevant. So if we don't answer immediately, then maybe people well, I'm I don't have a good work ethic, or I'm not a good team player, or you know, they don't need me as much. And so then, you know, if if I don't respond and they manage to solve the thing on them on their own, well then what am I playing? Yeah, then I'm gonna be irrelevant and disposable. And so, you know, a lot of the work, and this is really I think my intersection of psychology, leadership, HR, you workplace dynamics really intersects is trying to look at what is our psychology underneath it. What keeps us so busy, what keeps us in this driven, space, and what constantly causes us to burn out and burnout. Um, and I think it's layered. I think there's the well, am I good enough? Am I worthy? And underneath it, which is the harder thing to name, is a existential angst of like meaninglessness. So if I am not busy all the time, and if I'm not needed, and if I'm not, you know, pouring myself into something, if not work, then I see people just transfer that to a So they say, Well, I'm not working, but then they're now for marathons and they're trying to do their personal best, and they, you know, all they're learning guitar and now killing themselves to learn guitar. So it just gets transferred. Um, and actually, if we have to stop and do nothing, it's for people because then we have to confront the like that of the human condition and the frailty of like, yeah, what there really?

Speaker: 24:27

So, so I mean, this might be a very big question to answer in the setting, but how do we confront that question?

Speaker 4: 24:34

That's yeah, it's uh it's a really difficult one and it's a very deeply personal one. And I actually, I mean, I do quite a bit of work in the of existential psychotherapy, and what we talk looking at the big the big facts of life that are us. It's death, isolation, freedom, and meaninglessness.

Speaker 1: 24:55

Wow.

Speaker 4: 24:56

Those are the four those are the four like existential truths that I think human beings face, well, we don't face, we run from. And so part of it is just leaning into them, looking at them and saying, having conversations about them and what mean? And what am I terrified of? And you know, how how do I engage with it? Um, and it's a deeply personal because people f have to some way of understanding it. So for some it's through a religion or some form of because that gives them the bigger picture, the meaning. Um, for others, it's some people go the completely nihilistic route of like, well, there is no deeper meaning and this it, and I'm just gonna live for that. For others, it's a hedonistic thing of like, well, I'm gonna, you know, really live life to the fullest because nothing. And so I think it there's no prescribed way, but the the way through it is to just start naming these things and like, if I sit still, there is deep discomfort that I'm encounter. Um, typically, people don't go that deep into the stuff straight away. Yeah, it's normally the first of what they have to face is the discomfort in their lives, the marriage that's falling the strained relationships with parents or the the fact that they maybe aren't as healthy as they'd to be or aren't as happy. You know, so they have to confront the things that they're not satisfied in their life. And so it's easier. I think the one podcast episode I've called is busy as the lazy, because it's it's almost easier to just keep going and say, I'm too busy, I'll look at that later. I'm too busy, I can't even pay attention to it.

Speaker: 26:36

But that you're actually through that, you're actually something that is causing that. Yeah. Um what I find really interesting um within everything you said is that to me, like specifically because we're here in Africa and you you're based here, um, there is something that I only kind of started really engaging with and thinking when I started coming here and I started you know interacting with people here and getting to know also a lot about my and about myself through just mirroring, you know, like stories and hearing um the struggles that people face in the And what I find extremely interesting, not just here but in the world, is especially with this um yeah, with this work culture and hype and yeah, what you call the busies and the and this all these trends, you know, um, is that I think a lot of these mental well-being being programs and work-life balance programs and everything are looking at communities and and um parts of our society that have a lot of uh like agency and over their decisions and over their lives. Um, but there's a lot of people that are in positions where you know, there's things in their lives, if it's marriages or um or a visa situation in a country, or they're tied to their job because otherwise they get deported or whatever it is, they have very limited um agency over the situation that in. Um, and I'm just curious um how that has been for you here. Like if if you've um encountered situations like that where you maybe felt like, oh, I need a different approach, or how do I help people in that situation? Do they maybe have urgent agency, more agency that they think they have, or can I give them agency in a different way that enables them to get out of this kind of job where they're stuck and actually get something where they have the safety off that, whether it's a a marriage or a job, but still, you know, up into more agency or control. And yeah, I don't know how if you've experienced that at all, or yeah.

Speaker 4: 28:57

I mean the word agency forms of core part of the work that do because I think we can't live a fulfilled life if we if have no agency. Um, and I do believe in most circumstances there is some of agency that somebody can access. Um I think most of us spend life being passive recipients our life and just letting life happen, or we think life is to us. And and so the work that I do is how do you become an active participant in your life, whatever that looks like. And so if you are, and I work not only in South Africa but as well, if you are, let's say, in a job and you cannot because of a visa purpose or whatever the case may be, and revolting and you're hating it, and it's a toxic culture, boundaries are not respected, and you're burning out of that, you know, part of it is well, what can you do in situation? I always talk about um Stephen Covey's circle of concern circle of influence, which is saying there's certain that, I mean circle of control, there's certain things that will concern you and bother you and impact you, but you cannot do anything about. And then there are certain things that are within your but actually that's very limited. It's only really your thoughts and your reactions.

Speaker 2: 30:11

Okay.

Speaker 4: 30:11

And so in those situations, often for people, it have to start start with a deep acceptance of what the situation is. You know, everybody nowadays is saying it is what it is, I know that can be annoying, but but it's so powerful it is what it is. You're here for the foreseeable future, you need to be job. How do you then separate some of your emotional attachment to your work? And how do you show up and do what you can do? Still show, do it excellently, but what are you doing extra? Because I always believe there's part of us that's adding to it by our own angst and our own fearful, fear-fueled And so a lot of the work I do with with people there is to you know, again, like how attached are you to your work from an identity perspective? So, how much of this is real versus how much is it? Well, if I don't keep busy and I don't keep proving then who am I? And so we do a lot of that kind of work to separate it. Um, and then sometimes it's just sometimes it's a horrible to say that for now I have to stay. And it's shit. And can I say that?

Speaker: 31:22

You can say anything you like.

Speaker 4: 31:24

And it's shit.

Speaker: 31:26

This is your space.

Speaker 4: 31:26

I swear a lot, so I better just say, exactly. Um and it's revolting, and for now, because of your this is what it is. Obviously, I'm I'm not talking about if you're in an marriage, yeah, you know, then you that's not safe. But if the job is not putting you in any danger, yeah, um of what makes us so unhappy and and takes away our where we keep railing against what is, and we're like, it be like this. I don't want it, I I hate my job, I want to get out. It's like, okay, yes, but you can't right now. So what do you do in order to survive? And and that's not gonna this might not be your most joyful um energizing period of your life, but it's a survival, and and you just have to see it for that. And how do we plot a path through that?

Speaker: 32:14

And what's really interesting about that, like were describing what you were saying before. If you you look at it at the circle, and it's and you know, like your entire life is the circle, and then work is at the within that, it's essentially shrinking that circle, And like making space for other things again, absolutely, and the the whole person that you are. Um, even if it's if if time capacity-wise, you can't maybe do that, but then if it's just an emotional or mental thing, and I think what's beautiful about that is that even if that for a moment there is some sort of acceptance that needs to about your current situation, but I think shrinking of metaphorical circle and making space for other parts of you, that will then allow that is essentially that is creating I think it it allows, you know, thinking process and it allows emotional capacity to maybe allow your mind and your heart to think, oh, what else do I even want to do? Or which you can't let your body and mind go to that point when you're so overworked. You can't be creative, you know, and I mean creative in a very loose sense in terms of like creative with your life, you like what does what inspires you, what fulfills you, and to be able to have that space to find who you are and what what then ultimately creates you know a lot more agency find a position or think, oh, maybe I am actually good at this and I should apply for this job, or maybe I should just you know give it a go and see see what happens, and maybe just because I burn for something, someone else will see that within Or and I think that work that you that you're describing is just making space for that and giving because agency is you can't manufacture, right? It's it's essentially taken, or it's it's a balance of someone the space for it and then someone actually stepping it in a way. That's how I perceive it at least, and that's what's really I think that the work that that you're describing is just opening up space for it, and then people can tap into it and will. It's uh because I think we all have a kind of innate drive to want to tap into our agency. That's I think who we are, you know. We don't we're not born um like disobedient or anything. I think we all want to participate in society and in our in and in culture, and uh we want to be part of it and we want to be recognized for it. And it's really beautiful what you're describing, is that just essentially holding up a mirror in a way to the potential that that people have within themselves, and yeah, that's it's really really interesting.

Speaker 4: 35:05

Um I think though, if I can just jump in here, like yes, we all have an innate drive for agency, but what I've seen time and time again is with agency comes responsibility and and unfortunately, people are scared of that. So it's easier to stay the victim of your life and say, I can't do anything, and it's the leader and it's the work and it's my visa situation and it's whatever, it's thing, and therefore I'm gonna just stay miserable. Because if I become an active participant and I start choices, then I'm responsible for the for the those choices, which is what agency is, and it's amazing to say, Shh, I made a terrible choice, it was a bad Great, I can not great, I mean I'll have to deal with that, but I can make a different choice then. So that's the beauty when you see the upside of agency, but most people are too afraid because if I make a choice a bad choice, I don't want to have to hold myself for that. And so I see a lot of um, it's the blame culture, you know, and it's blaming everybody else and what desperately things to not be the way that they are. Um, and I think a huge shift that I see for when people making that shift to access that innate agency is where start realizing, well, I'm actually also responsible for I'm at now. There were decisions I made that got me into this job, here I am, and there are decisions that are made that for reasons I am stuck here for now, and I need to own that Um, it didn't just happen to me. And as soon as they can own it, they can then start owning things and make different choices. Um but again, busy is the new lazy because it's more to just stay as that passive recipient and be the victim we don't have to confront, we don't have to own. Ownership and accountability is very hard for a I'm realizing.

Speaker: 37:00

And what has been your experience working with leaders in HR to help with people like help people claim that ownership or get to the point of recognizing even that they have made decisions and that they led to a certain point? And um, is there how has that experience been? And like, how do you get how do you help people to to get to point?

Speaker 4: 37:26

Yeah, I guess it's through lots of conversation and unpacking and lots of well, what what did you do then, and what did you do then, and how did that lead to helping them to connect, like you said, hold up the mirror and help to connect the dots, and then I mean my approach is just straightforward and confrontational. Like sometimes I've I've just said, look, it's both are hard, both are shit. Yeah, like choose your heart because if you stay, it's be hard, if you try and leave, it's gonna be hard, but you choose. Uh, you're choosing to stay, so you're choosing that hard. And and I think part of it that comes back to that bigger question is challenging people around, but life's supposed be happy, and I'm supposed to, you know, be joyful, supposed to be easy, and like this isn't fair, and so I a lot of those um unuseful beliefs about life to say, is unfair, yeah, and nobody ever promised you happiness. Where did that ever? I mean, I know this sounds also depressing, but actually the truth, it's the truth of the human condition. And I think, you know, there's a there's a frame uh in theory that talks about our movement into adulthood that moves us from what they call the paranoid schizoids phase, is very much black or white, all good or bad. And as babies, it's like we see our mother as all good when she provides food and then all bad when she's gone. And and that we kind of carry that into our childhood and adulthood, you know, and so so we we believe in that stage, we believe in pure evil, and there is this pure good, and that's what everybody's aspiring to, is this but what what true adult development is, like when you in to this Kleinian theory, once you have reached maturity, you actually move into what she calls the depressive position.

Speaker 1: 39:21

Okay.

Speaker 4: 39:21

Because it is inherently depressing to know that there is no pure good. Yeah, it the life is just isn't the human condition is messy, it's frail, it's uncomfortable. You know, if you just look at our general emotions, the big five, it's we've got um glad, but we've got sad, mad, and bad. So out of the four big ones, why only one is this like thing. And so I blame Coca-Cola for this. Um don't come after me. But um this perpetuating this belief that that there's this pure good that we're aiming for and striving for. And so the depressive position pretty much says like life hard and it's depressing when you think about it deeply. And when you face into that reality, it's quite freeing you can say, well, then I can have moments of joy. So for me, when when people say to me, like, or when I'm workshops on mental health, like my definition of or true mental health, um, obviously, you need to have health and meant and kind of good cognitive capacity, good financial health. And then the last one is just the capacity to be able to moments of joy. And that's it. Like where you are open to saying, Oh wow, this is a great This is a great moment, and when it's gone, it's gone. I'm not, I'll be sad, and it'll be horrible to face the the normality and ordinariness of my life, but I'll be the next moment.

Speaker: 40:56

And the same really applies for all of these emotions. I think. I think that's what um was a powerful realization for me is it's for me, it was a moment of redefining the into complexity, you know, and realizing how what you just said about this moment of like brief moments of happiness and brief encounters with that feeling. The same is true for all the other feelings, you know, really everything subsides and nothing really sticks around It sometimes can very much feel like that, and I think that's often how depression also then manifests itself. But it yeah, it really, and I think there's a lot of different tools, you know, to explore that, and there's you know, there's meditation and there's like somatic work, and there's there's traditional therapy, and that there's a lot of different ways to get to that experience, but I think ultimately we live that experience on a day-to-day, and we just all we need is a little bit of yeah, I think this kind of mirror that you're or it can come in different forms, but I think experiencing this like stepping back from this attachment that we have to emotions and stepping back into more of a like, even if it's a very small step of an observational lens, and realizing, I felt this feeling for the last half hour, but actually now I feel a little bit better, and now I feel something a little different, and and and and tomorrow morning I'll feel something else, and and just it's you know, like I think really powerful to just experience how fleeting things are, and you know, this like famous saying of this two shall pass, and um I think that it it yeah, it's very powerful to just experience the of this experience um as a human, as a leader, as as a working person, as a parent or a child or whatever it is. I think it's so powerful what you said about this experience parents because yeah, we did we have this strong image of whether it's a parent or it's a it's a boss or a co-worker or an HR um leader, we see them in a certain way and we define then, therefore, as well. And we forget that they also have this complexity within And um I think if we would just do that a little bit more, it would just become a little bit more soft and not as we need to strive for this one, like you said, we have this these like different emotions, and we're just striving for one all the And that isn't helping that emotion or the other ones. Yeah, it's essentially just cancelling everything out in a way, and we can't achieve one without with disregarding the and um yeah, that's that's really, really powerful, I think, you were describing.

Speaker 4: 43:43

And I think that's where therapy or in the workspace coaching is so important because it does, it just gives people that to zoom out, kind of out of the busyness, out of the hustle, and just you know, for an hour every two weeks, three weeks, whatever it is. Just to zoom out and say, okay, how am I feeling? What's going on? What am I thinking? How am I showing up? Where are these complexities that I'm not that are out under the surface that I'm not kind of leaning into? And it's a safe space, you know, that for people to really with all these uncomfortable feelings and notice them. You know, most of my clients they'll say, I know you're to tell me now to feel my feelings, you know, and they get so annoyed because they want something maybe easier or quicker or simpler, and they're like, but that like, how can that that help? And I'm like, well, because you're a human being made up emotions and your emotions drive your body. Um, and if you're not dealing with your emotions, you that manifests. So what coaching does for leaders, for HR professionals, where they're holding all this complexity and other people's and their own emotions, it just gives them that space to out and say, or to breathe and say, Well, what's mine, theirs, what am I feeling, how how should I think

Speaker: 45:03

And just like supervision does, right? Exactly. That's such a key point, I think, that you just mentioned about these positions up at HR specifically, that it's not just a officer, right? It's like you hold the space for what we're talking about now within a whole company, and you have no one to talk to, is crazy.

Speaker 4: 45:25

Yeah.

Speaker: 45:25

And yeah, so please continue. Yeah, just that's a good thing.

Speaker 4: 45:28

Yeah, and so that's why I mean I've uh I I really feel that it's ridiculous that we let leaders and HR professionals in an organization without any support. You know, you would never let an athlete um train, let's say, for the Winter Olympics or whatever, or you know, for a marathon, you would never let them train and compete without a whole host of support. You've got their coach, their physio, they're their probably, their nutritionist. And we know that they need that team to stay in peak And yet leaders and HR professionals are just thrown into organizational space and expected to navigate this landscape. And I just think having that space, whether it's a space, a coaching space, a peer group, I mean, for me, if and more leaders could just start speaking to each other about the difficulties, um, it just would help them be more effective and not almost fumbling around in the dark.

Speaker: 46:29

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 46:29

Yeah.

Speaker: 46:30

Yeah. I think what comes to mind now for me when you're like also like your own experience earlier, but now your with your clients is that within this picture that you of the life circle, I'm just gonna call it, and the kind of the the work that fits into it and then other parts around it, how how has it been for you in your own life, but then also with with your clients and maybe peers as well, about the kind of um I'm the best way I can describe it is the kind of like of the definitions. Um I think a lot of the times, especially where I'm from, in the global north, in like the Western culture, you choose path and then you stick with that path until you die. And um that is, I think you know, fits for some people and it works and it's very fulfilling, but for others it And I think redefining that you you get to redefine it multiple times, as many as many times as you want, um, as it feels to you, is for me was a major realization and agency, you like form of agency and experiencing that I feel more when I make these decisions and I make them on my own accounts and not what is expected of me within my community or society. Um how has that been for you, maybe in your own life? Um you spoke before about this moment of kind of like waking and realizing oh, I need to change something. Um, but then I'm sure there's been many more moments after like where you had to redefine again and then again. You know, it might be on a day-to-day. I think you know, there's also such little space for um, yeah. If you talk about again about women in in any kind kind of there's no space for like PMS cycles, there's no space for I differently this week. I feel differently, this like my capacity is not the same day, you know. And it's not also not just for women, it's for everyone. Um, but just as one example, I think um there is I think little space for the kind of like breathing organisms that we are, yeah. Um, and that we just uh don't have the same yeah, capacity you you you brought up the example of sports, I think that's same, it's treated more, I think, um, as yeah, like your body will be tired one day and you can't perform the same in the every single day. You need rest days. But our work setup isn't it like that, it's not set up like We have two days in the week where you can kind of or like rewire us ourselves a little bit, but then we're thrown back into it. And yeah, how has that been for you, like in your own life and maybe also with your clients?

Speaker 4: 49:28

Yeah, I mean it I think I love how you said we are breathing organic organisms, and and the system of work is rigid, and it it doesn't allow for that. And I think again to the agency point, it's about how do we keep reinventing ourselves? And so um over time, I mean, I've always been in the field human behavior and psychology and organizational um mental health, but it's just evolved in terms of the work I do, the kind of people I do, the nature, the way I show up. Um so I was burning out, and cognitively I knew I had to make a change, but I was so stuck. I was so stuck in the school, I was stuck in the work, I just stuck in my life and didn't know, despite trying all the different boundaries and all the time management things, and the taking a break, and you know, all the things that we of what to do and exercise and eating healthily, it changing my burnout or my yeah, my way of being, my mental And so, and this is my and I am very aware that my story is quite drastic. It's not not everybody has the capacity to do this, but but it did require a drastic move. So, what happened was one night, like two in the morning, I'm busy working still, you know, catching up, doing all the um, after having fallen asleep, putting my child to sleep, know, then I got to drag myself out of bed at 10 o'clock. Anyway, and my husband had gone out for drinks with his and so I was sitting in my office working. He comes home, having had a couple of drinks, sits down in my office, and I'm ready to kill him. Because it's like, what are you doing? Like, don't come near me. You've been out having fun. I'm here working for me. And he says, I have an idea, and I'm now really, really to kill him because you don't come with your drunken ideas two in the morning while I'm working. And he said, How about we pack this all up and we go traveling for you? We take a sabbatical.

Speaker 1: 51:27

Wow.

Speaker 4: 51:27

And he threw that out there, and something in me just and I turned around, I said, Yes, that's a brilliant idea.

Speaker 1: 51:35

Wow, thank you.

Speaker 4: 51:36

And he panicked because he thought he thought I'd throw him out and we'd never speak about it again. And that started a cycle of different ideas. Anyway, what it ended up being was we we did we rented out house and we bought a caravan, and we we were gonna take a off to tour around South Africa. I put my business online, my husband closed his business, and my son, we put him on online schooling, and we were the road for a year.

Speaker 1: 52:01

Okay.

Speaker 4: 52:01

I was gonna try and do a bit of work and time off. And we got as far as Plattenburg Bay, which is along our coast here, and then lockdown happened.

Speaker: 52:11

I was like, what is gonna change the plan?

Speaker 4: 52:14

What's gonna change the plan? Lockdown happened. So we made this plan long before we even knew about COVID or lockdown, and but we were so well set up, but then we were in a campsite, and the campsite owner was coming, it was weekend, I think, or something, and the campsite owner everybody we had to um pack up and go home because you had close the campsite. It must have been before the Easter weekend. Anyway, it's school holidays, and we went to him and we we don't have anywhere to go back to. My husband had this amazing idea of staying there for at the campsite. I was having none of that. And so the campsite owner put us in touch with friends of his that had a farm a little bit further out of town, uh, a farm stall and a dairy farm, and on it they had some holiday So he said, Go and ask them, I'm sure, because everybody's be vacating, so I'm sure they'd be happy to have somebody for the three weeks. We literally got there the morning of lockdown, and the showed us, she said, Look, we've got these little um cottages, but we actually have this family house that only rent out occasionally. Maybe you want to have a look at it. It's in the forest. I don't know if you'll like it. So we go down this indigenous forest path into this where there's this double-story wooden house, uh, with a massive garden and a forest, private forest around it. And she said, Well, you can take it for lockdown. And we literally moved in that day and stayed there for two years. You stayed there for two years for 2020 and 2021, and then kicked us out because everything was opening up, and then but but from there we then moved to another small holding out of town for two years. And so why I'm sharing that, it is drastic, but it was that my major transformation happened because I My husband, so where his idea came from was he was he he knew he needed to remove me from all the the trappings that I kind of caught myself in, yeah, yeah. And he didn't know how. And so, and lockdown for me, and I know for every for many it was traumatic and revolting, but for me it was amazing for the first three weeks I literally slept. I'd slept until three, four o'clock every afternoon.

Speaker 3: 54:33

Wow, yeah.

Speaker 4: 54:33

Um, because that's obviously what my body needed, and we don't get the luxury to do that. Yeah, you know, typically you'll get booked off for three of burnout leave. Um, and you can't sleep the whole time because you've still got your responsibilities, and you know it. And you know you're going back. And then I because I had put my business online and I had back and it was COVID, the big delivery work had all been So I was literally just seeing individual clients online, that enabled me to regulate my nervous system. I had kind of regular work hours. I could sit down and have lunch every day. I finished at a particular time, we went for walks, I did that for the full two years, and and that's pretty what it took to reset my system. Uh, and then we went to the to the small holding and I kept up that that framework for the first year. And then 2023 was when I started really becoming more active in workplace mental health, more outspoken. COVID gave us, gave me the opportunity to start using the mental health in the workplace. Before that, I was always trying to allude to it, and but you couldn't use it.

Speaker 3: 55:38

Interesting, okay.

Speaker 4: 55:39

But in COVID, suddenly people were saying this is affecting our mental health. And so then I really started um pushing that agenda mental health. And so 2023 is really kind of where my core focus then off because I I realized, I mean, we're in a mental health and knowing my experience, and then my clients that to me in various levels of burnout, you know, I realized was serious work that needed to be done because you can't book somebody off for three weeks and expect to recover. So there's there's a rhythm change that has to happen to life, but that happens, that starts by shrinking the work and being able to uh unhook one's identity from work and worth, and being able to say, if I'm not working, I'm still okay. Yeah, I'm still okay as I am, I'm still lovable, I'm still, you know, I'm still a human being. Um, and so the clients that I've worked with, a lot of them in the beginning, even now when I get new clients, and I'll say, you know, it's a this is a journey, it's a two, journey to recovery, but you're never fully recovered. You it's like you're an addict, and you will never go back pre-burnout level. And they they are really gutted with that uh thought, but they never don't want to go back there because they'll just land up burning out again, which is what I realized.

Speaker: 57:06

Interesting point, yeah.

Speaker 4: 57:07

Yeah, so I realized that, and I had a little bit of this last year where I was really busy, full up with work, launching kinds of initiatives, and that inner driver striver kind of started, she started showing her head, and and I was again and pushing late hours, and I had to stop and say, like what am I doing? You know, it's not it's not healthy, and I could feel myself burning out because you have to you forever have to pace It's you never um like an addict always says, they're always in recovery. I think once you've burnt out, you typically you're a work a work addict, and you always have to pace yourself.

Speaker: 57:50

Yeah. So we spoke um just now about your experience of what it what it was like for you to how to how you broke that cycle um in within the system and the kind of perpetuated burnout, yeah, uh scaffolding in a way. Um and yeah, it I I think it's really interesting what you about. Obviously it's quite a unique situation with the external but then also your own um situation with your family and and able to kind of step out of it completely. But I think what is really valuable regardless is to hear is what you like what your body needed in that time and what whole system, your nervous system, and everything needed, and how you how long it took to like get to a point of feeling well and feeling recharged and kind of recalibrated and everything. So what's really what I would love to hear like your on is what do you think we can do companies but also within companies um and in their own lives can do to prevent to take this amount of time off, or what if they can't do that or don't have the privilege or the um whatever means to to do that, what else can we do to prevent at that point um or um to just slow down the the kind of I don't know if this is even the point, to like slow down the the amount of time to get burnout. Obviously the point is to prevent it in at all, like But yeah, maybe you can speak on that a little bit if you and things.

Speaker 4: 59:50

Yeah, I mean I think that's the the main thing is to look at prevention. Um at the moment, the model, both in the medical but also in the organizational space is cure. So we only step in once somebody's already burnt out. Um and there's you know um employee assistance programs that are there where you can phone if you're in a crisis. Uh and and so once once you're already burnt out, the road recovery is long. And so the impact individually and systemically in the is is is really long and arduous, and it has a massive And so prevention is the way to go. And and I think a lot of companies are trying with the programs at the moment where they offer a yoga class or a know, a health day or um a free smoothie Friday or whatever the case may be. Some have no meeting Wednesdays, you know. So there's lots that people are trying, and I don't want dismiss them because I think it's better than nothing. But all of that, unfortunately, is what I call because it's not actually changing the scaffolding of the and and of the way we work and of our relationship with A. And B, it's laying the um problem just at the foot of the It's saying you need to do yoga and get enough sleep and and eat well, and you do all of that, and we'll help provide that. And then it's it's up to you to get to be well. And if you're not, you're at fault because you didn't make time, you don't care about yourself enough, you know, you have good boundaries. And so that rhetoric that we've got at the moment is is very dangerous. So it's shaming, it's blaming, um, and it's it's keeping and leaders completely devoid of any responsibility of happening to the individual. So I'm not saying individuals can be excused because to take care of ourselves, but it's a it's a both that we have to start looking at. And um I think so so. If I just look from an individual perspective, yes, of all the stuff we get fed all the time is important eating sleeping well, drinking your water, taking your vitamins. But what I always say is you can do all of that. And if you're not dealing with what's going on in your head and your heart, you'll still be unhealthy. And what I mean by that is what we've spoken about before. If you're not actually dealing with your deeper psychology your relationship to work, no matter what you do, you're going to end up being addicted to work and and if not burning out completely, being in a level of of So those, I kind of feel like all those health tips almost just helping people carry on being burnt out.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

I see, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:02:39

Um so what what needs to happen is, I mean, maybe this is a bit repetitive, but we have to start by separating our from our work. We have to stop saying that I'm only worthy if I'm when I'm working, when I'm delivering, and being able to kind who we are, warts and all the human frailties, and say it matter what I do, I'm still okay as a human being. And and kind of saying I work and I enjoy my works for some of us, or I want to do a good job and I have to work for all of those reasons, but I'm not completely enmeshed with my job. And I think, you know, when we do, when we take that step, can really start to to prevent burnout, or uh, but that's the journey people go on in terms of the recovery, is having to separate, and that sometimes does require a major step What it doesn't have to be as drastic as what I did, but people will will leave that job, or they will start leave organizational space and start their own um company, or they will step out completely, or they will take a sabbatical, or they will take a demotion, they'll come out of a position. So it's very hard to recover in a system that is the one burnt you out.

Speaker: 1:04:04

Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 4: 1:04:05

I always say you can you it's like this the organization's a fish tank, and if the system is toxic or you know unhealthy work habits, it's like it's all covered with moss and you know it's murky in there. You can take the goldfish out, clean it up, give it all the tools and tips at once, but you throw it back in. It's gonna get murky.

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

Yeah, that's um powerful.

Speaker 4: 1:04:28

And so so when I share that analogy with people, sometimes like, okay, well, I gotta get out of this fish pond. Like, I this tank isn't for me anymore.

Speaker: 1:04:36

Um that that feeds into the question I was gonna ask, um, which like builds on on what you just said, but so I'm curious after the time that you've taken away from work and away from kind of your life in general, what are some of the things that you then changed? Maybe some of the lessons, but also especially some of the you then incorporated into your when you went back into work into your daily life, um, to not go back into that dirty, fish tank. Um, because in some ways you probably did go back into the that you were doing before, but what was different? Like what did you change?

Speaker 4: 1:05:15

Um, I think one is a huge vigilance around why am I doing the thing I'm doing? So am I saying yes to this piece of work? Am I working late? Um, am I whatever rushing around feeling hustled and and What is underneath that behavior? Is it because it's really necessary, because it's a busy and that sometimes happens? Um, or am I doing it because I'm trying to prove I'm trying to get the dopamine hit, the reward, the the approval from outside. So am I striving for something external and is that why doing this? Um, and often people say, but I don't have a choice because my deadlines are my deadlines, or you know, my manager's me I have to do all of this work, and no matter what, how I push back, they just keep saying I have to do it all. And I hear that, and I still want to challenge that because you if you keep doing it all, then they're going to believe that you can keep doing it all.

Speaker 2: 1:06:12

Got you, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:06:13

So you're the one that is shooting yourself in the foot. So and people are like, Oh, but I can't drop a ball. Again, you're not in emergency medical services. Dropping a ball does not mean somebody's gonna die. So if you don't deliver or you deliver late, well, that helps your leader then realize that you're not coping. But what we do is we say, I can't cope, I can't cope, my too full, I'm burning out, and yet because we push and we think we want to show that we can be a good employee, we kill ourselves to deliver. Yeah, and all the manager sees is oh well, she says she's but she keeps delivering. So why should I pull back? Yeah, it can't be that bad. And so we have to be okay with failing, I suppose. We have to be okay with saying, I'm not gonna meet that and and let the management feel some of the pressure Um and not then, and that's where it's like not then your worth to that and saying, Oh, but now I'm a failure. It's not, you are managing a system and you're health. Um, and so often I say to people, it's actually a business to keep pushing through and to keep delivering because gonna collapse, and then what? So you're trying to be so um available and so needed and show how amazing you are, but when you have when you collapse and you have to be booked off for six months, yeah, then you're actually putting the business more at risk as opposed to back and saying, This is all I can do.

Speaker: 1:07:46

So it's like a more the approach we're currently using is acute and kind of short-sighted, it sounds, what But we're actually and we're we're doing that thinking, helping everyone in the company, and we're uh everyone's from our work, but really it's yeah, it's like you said, it's like the risk is much higher than accepting uh our not faults, but our just different levels of capacity, I Um and what you're describing, I think now you were more about the the workers and the people kind of like on the foundation of a company, but the same goes for the leaders, in the HRs. Like they um they struggle with the same pressure for If it's even even if you're at the top of the like quote unquote pyramid um of a company and you maybe are the person that is answering to, in a weird way, at when you're at that I always think it reverses the pyramid because you are for for it standing on the foundation and you need to keep it running. So you're answering also to, yeah, like you said before um you're answering to yourself essentially, and and when in that position, which is also like a huge amount of pressure. Um but what do you think is like what what do you think are some of the things a company or an organization can do aside from or maybe that is that is part of the of the in-between steps, but you were mentioning before all of the things we're doing um the smoothie Fridays and the the like um no meetings all of these things, like aside from those things, what else you think can a company do? Um, and whether that goes to HRs or to management personnel or whoever is responsible for making that change, but what do you think they can do so that their workers feel more so that they feel like they can share moments like, oh, I do know what I I can't submit this deadline. I thought I could before, but it's actually bigger than I And I think a lot of the times people want to say that, but scared and they think they just get sucked if they do that. Yeah, or they maybe get that one time, you know, where they misstep, um, but then you know, the the third time that's it, or something like is it just a conversation they need to with their workers, or is it is it already at the hiring or is it more similar to maybe like a relationship where you like regular check-ins and affirmations of like, you know what, like every week I'll tell my workers it's fine, you trying best, but like keep trying your best, but you know, you don't go what is it like that they can do, you know. I wonder.

Speaker 4: 1:10:43

Is it so part of it is being okay with not being perfect realizing you're human, you're not gonna achieve everything because I think we expect ourselves to be machines, and part of that is two, and this is my direct experience that I had to engage with, and it's two words that we that really like taste horrible in my mouth to even say them, but it's and disagreeable, and I think we have to get used to that as human beings, is that sometimes you're just gonna be and ordinary and very average, and nobody wants to be you know. I'm highly competitive. I mean, I compete with everything, and to realize that in to survive, in some things I'm just gonna allow myself mediocre, and sometimes that means in my work to say that's good enough. Um, and and so part of the sh internal shift, the shift we have to do is saying, I cannot be a machine at everything, and I cannot be perfect, and in fact, even to the point of saying I don't want to, I don't want to be anymore. I don't want to be above average because that comes with a of stress and pressure. And and if you just think about it from a society perspective, if everybody's trying to be above average, average moves. So actually, or we are we're all just average at the moment because we're all trying to be extraordinary, but now is just ordinary, isn't it? And so it's maybe working out, okay, this and this I'm gonna push on, and I really want to be excellent in this. Um, but these things I'm just gonna let go. Like you can never, you'll never perfect your inbox. You will never ever get to inbox zero, or you might for a yeah, and then you know, it's like the guy sweeping up the leaves in the driveway. You know, you think you're done and you turn around and the that's so striving for inbox zero is a waste of time energy. It's so it's really getting comfortable with the of unfinished work, missing deadlines. And I know companies don't want to hear this, but that is will lead to what I call healthy excellence. So that's what we want to work towards is to say we all want to be excellent, we want to do a good job, we want to achieve great things, but it is only excellent if my health is still intact, mine and my team's if I'm a leader. If that excellence has come at the expense of my health, my team's health, and physical, mental, emotional, want to define health, if that's at the expense, then that be excellent. And I think that that is what we have to define for ourselves first, and then organizationally, what is true is sustainable success. Because I think to your point, at the moment we're very Success is the short-term win. Success is, you know, just shooting the lights out on this Um, and we're not seeing we're not seeing it for the long And then it's shifting also our perception of or of what resilience is. So much of the resilience language is great determination, in, you know, digging deep, all of that kind of rhetoric, is not what resilience is. That's that is a sure path to burnout. Yeah, and uh yes, sometimes we have to push ourselves, like we're pushing ourselves. Resilience actually is knowing when to stop and rest. And we can only do that if we're comfortable with the of leaving things unfinished. And so that's the mediocrity one, and then being Nobody wants to be not liked. In fact, when we do our psychometric assessments on hiring, one of the five personality traits that we hire for because we want people in the organization that are agreeable, that are yes, people, and that what good team players and are nice to get along, and obviously we want that, but I think taken the agreeableness too far, and everybody's too scared to upset somebody, or so we don't want to say no, or we don't want to miss a deadline, or we don't want to say to a team sorry, but that's not my job. I don't have capacity because we think that'll make us and and we have to be okay to be disagreeable, we have to okay for people to upset people, um, even if that means our boss. And I'm not saying doing things that are now going to put job at jeopardy, but there is a lot, and I can honestly this not just theoretically, because I've worked range of people who say, but I could never say no on that. And I push them and say, What can you say no on? Let's look at your let's look at what's in your schedule. Is everything absolutely necessary? Where can you push back a little bit? Do you have to do all five of those projects at the same You know, and when you start really drilling down into it, lot of it we've put our own urgency onto it. So so I think from an individual perspective, it's our worth from our work. It's being okay with having work unfinished and being average and mediocre and ordinary, because that's actually life is pretty mediocre and ordinary, and being okay with It's being okay with being disagreeable, and then really realizing it's just a job. Yeah, it's actually just a job. I say that maybe 10-15 times a day to myself and to to the I work with, is even in such meaningful work that I'm doing that I absolutely love and I know it's having an impact, I to keep reminding myself it is just a job at the end of the day.

Speaker: 1:16:05

Yeah, even if it's meaningful to you and you get a lot and and uh joy out of it doesn't mean that your life needs to put at risk for it. Exactly.

Speaker 4: 1:16:19

Yeah, and I think that's where we've it's the whole is distorted, and work has just taken up way too much of our worth, our time, our angst. It's just because it and yes, I know it gives us our security, and without that, our mental health is screwed. I get that, yeah, but I think we've placed too much because I think it goes back to what we spoke about. I think not working um is too scary. Not you know, facing all the other stuff around the human condition. Yeah um yeah, so and I mean, and even if you are a or a doctor, and I know your work is then life-saving, it is just a job, and we have to find ways when we're not at that job to switch off, to recharge, to recover, and that's true resilience is. Again, using the sporting metaphor, marathon runners don't the whole way because they know that they won't sustain And but we're just doing one sprint after the next, after the next, after the next, and that's not we have to learn when to step back, when to rest, how to reset. Um there's a lot we can do. I'm really not one for like the tips and tricks, you know, I think that they people take them as a silver bullet and vary just on the surface, then. But if you are intentional about resetting your and you do that regularly, it it won't help you burnout, but it should help prevent burnout if you're not yet. And so, what I mean by that is when we are in this hustle and rushing around and so busy and so anxious about work all the time, our parasympathetic nervous system kicks the fight or flight. So the what that hustling and busy and rushing is it's sending signals to our brain that we're in danger. And then we are completely running on adrenaline and and the system is activated, and we're not designed to for so long, and that's what's leading to burnout. So, if you just think about it from a brain perspective, we want to do is constantly think of how I can nervous system, which is the rest and digest system, it's the calming system. And it's not you don't have to go and sit and meditate a tree for an hour, you don't have to do a whole yoga um, you know, all of that do breathing, deep breathing, all of those things are amazing, but we don't have time for So if you can do those things, that's great. But it's it's literally just making sure you walk slower you can don't rush from thing to thing. Drive a bit slower, eat a bit slower. It's making sure when you're standing in the queue or at a robot, you're not picking up your phone and trying to catch up on emails and WhatsApps, it's just being at the Then you can take a few deep breaths.

Speaker 1: 1:19:10

By the way, for the people who are not in the case.

Speaker 4: 1:19:11

Oh, sorry. Yeah, sorry, a traffic light. Um, you know, when you are eating your breakfast, just eat breakfast. Don't also try and catch up on your emails. So I think there's a lot of ways we can just take these slow moments of pause. When you walk to the toilet, don't walk on your phone. When you're on the toilet, don't be on your phone. You know, so it's really just being intentional about saying, how can I eliminate some of the sympathetic activating stuff? Not all of it is in our control, but a lot of it is, and making it worse. Don't sleep with your phone next to your bed. Yeah, that is my biggest bug bear because you're on it all time then. Before you go to bed, you activate the sympathetic nervous You can't sleep at night, you wake up, you're checking. Before you've even put your feet on the floor, and your and body has had a chance to absorb the rest from the night, you've already checked your emails, your WhatsApps, your media, the news, and you're ready, you you're activated. So I know a lot of people say to me, it's my alarm system. You know, that's how I wake up. Is there still analog old-fashioned alarm clocks that you get?

Speaker 1: 1:20:22

No way.

Speaker 4: 1:20:22

You can use those. So I'm just saying, like, I guess the point is there's a lot you can do that we think we can't. And and again, we're too busy to buy an analog clock, or too busy to change that habit. But it's just about being intentional, and and so that's why I'm saying you have to go beneath the surface to say, I want to do these things because I know it's so important. And so my last thought on that, I guess, is just to the burden and the risk. You know, we've always been told about having to put your oxygen mask on first.

Speaker 1: 1:20:54

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:20:55

Um, and for years, I couldn't understand about that on the airplane. I'd be like, Are you mad? Because I was so wired to be the people pleaser, the rescuer, the saviour. And I I remember every time I heard that, I would think to are you mad?

Speaker: 1:21:11

Well, especially because they give the example of children. Well, exactly. For helping children help yourself.

Speaker 4: 1:21:16

And I'm like, Are you mad? Never mind if it's my own child or even my own family, a an adult stranger. There's no way I'd be so selfish to put it on myself first. And one day it it um it really dropped as to why they do Because if I don't put the oxygen mask on myself first, I fainting. Yeah, and then I can't help anyone. Then I'm a burden to the flight attendant instead of actually being of assistance, and that's what happens if we keep if we keep trying to be the there for everyone, if we keep yes, if we keep um, you know, trying to prove that we're an amazing employee or friend or daughter or whatever it leader, HR professional, if we keep trying to prove these we're actually end up being a burden. And so it's really shifting this narrative that we've

Speaker: 1:22:07

And what's really interesting, I think, about the you've given now, um what people can do in the day-to-day, and you know, all the like small things like you said with the and taking breaks and not um kind of consuming, actually. That's kind of what we're doing, consuming and responding all the time, reacting. Um I think what that also enables is to because you spoke a about the nervous system and um regulating that that system, which I think is such a big plays such a big role in our in a company, right? In a in a in a community. Like a company, I think I see it as a form of a community or a um or at least I think that's what it should be, ideally. Um and in in a in a in a structure like that, I think what regulates your system is a form of communicating your your or you briefly touched on that before. If you you know, like if someone is asking you to hand in a or some sort of deadline, and you realize I can't do it, I meet that deadline, to communicate that. And not communicate out of spite or because you're bored or you can't be asked, but because you checked in with yourself the way to the bathroom, or whilst you were at the in the car, or whatever where you had a moment where you weren't on your and you kind of I think that can be the effects of taking small steps and then being able to have these moments where you can check in and realize actually I'm I'm wrecked, I can't do that today, and then communicating that boundary, and I that that form of communication and speaking your for yourself is regulating your system as well. Like it it activates your vagus nerve, it regulates your it it communicates to both people on this in on either end of the that you're you're creating a safety for yourself and therefore you're handing back responsibility also to someone else sharing responsibility or whatever it is in the moment. But I think those small that what I'm trying to say is those steps and the things you mentioned can go a long way and they can enable um they can I think you said multiple times that's not the only thing that will change the system, right? Like all these, like changing your diet and the vitamins all that stuff. But what what I'm hearing is that these small things can have they they can open a door into a space where you where you're able you create capacity for yourself to check in with on what you're actually feeling, and then you can that, and that's actually then making an actual shift in the Um but yeah, so I I'm curious. You spoke a lot on the individual now, and um, and I think all really valuable information. Um, and now I'm curious because you know it you also touched that briefly that individuals can do a lot in the change, but the company needs to follow as well. They need to um follow a suit and either open a space for the individuals to make that change or grow, or follow the change that the individuals create, or ideally create that all I guess. Um but so I'm curious what your thoughts are on what's what maybe leaders in HR can do, maybe specifically leaders actually, for their employees to have a space where they can where they can share these boundaries and they feel safe to share them, or um they are hurt and in their fears as well and in their on that?

Speaker 4: 1:25:53

So I think just on what you said about the nervous system is our nervous system energy is contagious, and actually we pick up on somebody's nervous system energy before we pick up on anything else. And so as a leader, the the core thing, the first thing that is the most important is for you to regulate your own nervous system. Because if you're sympathetically activated, that is physically going to activate the people around you. And so we can do all these other things, and we can talk I mean, a big a big concept at the moment is and I'll I'll speak into that a little bit, but we can we can uh you know talk about all these amazing theories and and practices, but if your own system is not regulated, um of that's really gonna hold because people won't, it won't credible because in your presence, they're gonna feel they're gonna feel unsafe because you are emitting danger because you're wired. So all the stuff that I spoke about on an individual level, I think that's the first thing a leader needs to do is make sure that they are taking care of their own health, their well-being and physical well-being, and continuously the parasympathetic nervous system so that they're down. Um, because only then will people start to feel safe in presence. And that's that's essentially what organizations need doing is I mean, obviously, systemically, we need to workload because I think it's unrealistic at the moment, everything, people trying to do more with less at the moment, cost cutting, and I get that they're financial strains, but I think some companies are just taking it too far, and cutting teams down to the bare minimum, and there's three or four people now doing the work of what should have been six or seven. And back to my point, those individuals just keep because they're scared that they'll be next. And so the the leaders are like, Well, we're managing on smaller team. So, so yes, it's for those individuals to push back, but the system has to listen to that. And if people are saying we cannot deliver, Uh they've got to step back because leaders in their defense, they've lost touch with the the writ the degree of what the job entails. So if you just think yes, it can be done, they're gonna take your word for it. So so the leader, it's if somebody comes to you and says this is not possible, or are they gonna have capacity to listen that and not be so scared of uh people taking advantage, take advantage of the system. Like, why do we immediately default to the worst Yes, there is always maybe one in ten that will take the out of the system like that, and will you know take but then you performance manage them. But why don't you punish everybody who's actually doing a job? And so the first thing is if somebody's saying I don't have capacity, or we won't need that deadline, or that's listen. I'm not saying you have to immediately agree, but just to what they're saying, try and understand how are they about this thing, how maybe they are being they're not as efficient as they could be. So give them that support to say, I hear you, let's think of the truth, or let's try and how how can I help you So, so you know, the resourcing and workload really needs um be looked at because that's when people feel all anybody wants is to feel seen, heard, and loved. And when you can help, and I know people don't like to use word loved in the organizational space, but seen, valued. So when somebody is feel seen, then you know, then you're together in a partnership here because ultimately it's really fundamentally believing your people want to deliver, they to do a good job, they don't wake up in the morning well, how can I stop up today? How can I do the least amount of work? And I know a lot of leaders challenge me on that because your buttons you haven't met my team. And um, I really fundamentally believe majority of to do a good job, and if they're not, there's something in their way.

Speaker: 1:29:52

As a leader, as a reason if that is the case. Exactly.

Speaker 4: 1:29:56

So listen into it because what psychological safety at its level means is we want people to be able to bring their brain to work. Um, so if you're activated sympathetically and you're out danger signals, if people are completely exhausted and out and overwhelmed all the time, their prefrontal cortex not work. And that's our thinking part of our brain, that's the part of our brain that helps us do our work, helps us helps us reason, you know, emotional regulation, all And so creating psychological safety says to people, bring your whole brain here, otherwise, people are coming work in in their part of life, and you're not getting the out of it.

Speaker: 1:30:43

And then you just have workers activated and actually we'll it up at time.

Speaker 4: 1:30:50

And that's we're just busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, but that's it's just become the default everybody's just activated. Nobody is holding up anything to say, what are we so busy Let's reevaluate what are we what's kind of most important, and then to your point, we're checking in what do we have for? And that needs to go all the way to the top. And I mean, I work with a lot of senior execs, and when they start realizing the pressure that they're putting on the people below them, it starts to shift the system. But for many of them, they've spent their whole life this drivenness, this ambition, it's what got them to that And now you have to actually take a photo accelerator down. It's like it's hard for them because they've got all this but also what they realize, what you know, often in the with me is they realize they've got this responsibility to for the business and the shareholders or the board or it is, but they also have a responsibility to their people and to make sure that their people are healthy because that's a it's plain business risk if we want to talk business

Speaker: 1:32:02

So do you think there is a because you just mentioned it can be quite intense, like if it's going from having one sort of that it's maybe built this whole company and your you know you get a lot of rewards and it's it's it's paying off Um, and then but maybe then at some point where I think oh this it it used to pay off, but now I don't feel so good, and needs to change. Um, but then maybe when you come in at this point, maybe when you introduce a new sort of mindset um and approach. Like, what do you think is maybe does it need like smaller in between so that the shift isn't as extreme and it can be be built like gradually? do you think of that? It needs like a hard, like maybe in your case, like a hard out, and like do people need to be shaken sometimes, or um is it I'm guessing it's also a bit like depending on every individual, um yeah, how that's the experience within your work just

Speaker 4: 1:33:03

Yeah, I mean I think it does, it it can for some people it's it's lots of layers and peeling and peeling and kind of and kind of making small shifts. Um most often though, I think at that level, what I see is does require, or not require, what happens is it's a Something happens, they collapse, they have a health issue, they get divorced, the something happens that they then are forced to pause and reevaluate and and and shift. And and I wish that it wouldn't have to be that it wouldn't have to go so far because the repercussions are so huge and damaging, and the and the often it's trauma that people But I think sometimes maybe that's just the way we are as you know, it's like we need that big wake-up call before willing to to actually do that. They know something needs to change, they don't know what. They're often quite terrified to do that that change, your body will do it for you. I always say if you don't make time for your wellness, you'll be forced to make time for your illness, and that's what what I see time and time again. Um there's been some cases where it's just happened that, and that's obviously much nicer than their system. Um, but they also then have to be in a system that is uh to their shifts, and so sometimes if the individual is and the system is putting pressure, the only thing that's help shift is some kind of crisis.

Speaker: 1:34:44

yeah. And so uh yeah, I was gonna ask what do you think with people that you have worked with that that weren't pushed as far and maybe were more willing to get help earlier or um consult other friends or like yourself, people like yourself. Um what do you think is what's the difference? Like is it a generational thing that people are more willing um to get help at an earlier point, or is it uh is it a of like your community with your surroundings, or what what what is the new experience like? Um the reason I'm asking is because I'm I'm wondering how can we get people to the point where they can create where they essentially don't need you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: 1:35:31

You want to get rid of it out of a job, no, exactly.